Bojack Horseman

[LemonMelon]

I just watched this episode and feel compelled to comment on it. I have watched the show from the beginning and wanted so bad to like it, but this episode in particular drove home what I had been sensing for a long time: the show desperately, desperately wants to say something profound about depression and mental health, but simply doesn't know what that thing is. And in all the hyperbolic reviews of this episode, critics are contorting themselves trying to present that fundamental aimlessness as profundity. The show wants to be revelatory in a Mad Men style, but it simply isn't. I wish I didn't feel that way, because the ambition is to be admired, but I can't escape it.

I've gone through long periods of depression at various points in my life, and the reasons behind the depression differed in every instance. My depression at 10 was different from my depression at 16 and again in my early 20s. I could attempt to make a profound statement about mental health based on my experiences, but I don't think one exists. The writers, to my knowledge, have always been more interested in depiction than prescription, and thank God for that.

To address the matter of aimlessness, I've never seen this as a nihilistic series and aimlessness has never been depicted as profound on this show. In Fish Out of Water, the writers went out of their way to say, explicitly, that the best aspect of life is human connection. The happiest characters on the show connect well with others and allow a degree of intimacy in their relationships. There is nothing aimless about that. Aimlessness, if anything, is depicted as self-destructive. The loss of purpose is death to these characters and you often see depression coincide with their loss of a support system. This may not be a "profound" statement on battling depression, but it is an important one that is worth taking to heart.

By far the show's finest depiction of self-hate and destructive, ruminating thought patterns is Stupid Piece of Shit, which hit me harder on a personal level than any episode of Mad Men I've ever watched (and you of all people know I love Mad Men). The message of that episode is clear: if you hate yourself, time won't make it go away. You need to be proactive about your own thoughts. That's heavy and constructive and it resonated with thousands of people. I can't properly encompass in this post the level of impact that episode had on the fanbase. It was remarkable. When I catch myself falling into self-destructive, hateful thought patterns, I still reflect back on the illustration they offered, stop myself and say "hey, why are you doing this to yourself?" The answer to that question is very personal and it's something Bojack's writers have spent the most time on.

If the writers are indeed trying too hard, I hope they keep chipping away, because they connect with stunning moments of clarity pretty damn frequently. I think we can all agree that they will never be able to craft a broadly applicable statement about depression and mental health. What they can do and have done is communicate precisely why the titular character is depressed, what he can do about it, and what is holding him back. I know the answers to all of that because this show is incredibly well written and detailed on a character level. Bojack serves as an illustration of a broader concept for the viewer, but he is not all there is to depression. In fact, his depression differs significantly from Diane's because of their similar but divergent upbringings.

None of this is to say that you have to like what they're doing, that's entirely subjective, but for a 25 minute animated comedy series, I think they've managed to be revelatory in a very different and certainly more disarming manner than Mad Men ever was. Bojack Horseman is an, ahem, Trojan horse that pulls you in when you least suspect it. It's a clinic in sleight of hand. The challenge I see in this show is in establishing that balance between linguistically-charged sardonic humor and existentialist reflection, which I think they've done an excellent job of for the most part, but it can be a struggle during small patches of seasons.

 

[iron yuppie]

What they can do and have done is communicate precisely why the titular character is depressed, what he can do about it, and what is holding him back. I know the answers to all of that because this show is incredibly well written and detailed on a character level.

I appreciate this response. But I think this is where we will disagree. The show wants to have it both ways: the perspective that the root of depression etc cannot be directly identified or predicted, and therefore treated in a consistent manner (which I think is basically true); and the kind of episode that throws around easy/convenient explanations (he had a bad childhood, he too often turns to womanizing and alcohol, etc). That tension/oscillation makes for a frustrating experience on the season-wide level, even if individual episodes can work well.

 

[bono_212]

I just watched this episode and feel compelled to comment on it. I have watched the show from the beginning and wanted so bad to like it, but this episode in particular drove home what I had been sensing for a long time: the show desperately, desperately wants to say something profound about depression and mental health, but simply doesn't know what that thing is. And in all the hyperbolic reviews of this episode, critics are contorting themselves trying to present that fundamental aimlessness as profundity. The show wants to be revelatory in a Mad Men style, but it simply isn't. I wish I didn't feel that way, because the ambition is to be admired, but I can't escape it.

This is basically how I feel, but struggled to put it into words.

That said, still love the show, even if I feel it misses the mark.

 

[LemonMelon]

I appreciate this response. But I think this is where we will disagree. The show wants to have it both ways: the perspective that the root of depression etc cannot be directly identified or predicted, and therefore treated in a consistent manner (which I think is basically true); and the kind of episode that throws around easy/convenient explanations (he had a bad childhood, he too often turns to womanizing and alcohol, etc). That tension/oscillation makes for a frustrating experience on the season-wide level, even if individual episodes can work well.

See, I wouldn't consider this an easy explanation at all. On one level, sure, Bojack himself sees his upbringing as a foundational cause for his depression, but it's become increasingly clear (and the other characters have voiced as much) that the cyclical nature of his depression is rooted more in his habits and poor relationships than anything else. I believe Bojack going to rehab proves he understands this as well. "Don't hurt people while using the past as a crutch" is the running theme of season 5 in particular.

This is interesting to me because the self-destructive anti-hero archetype often thrives on its enigmatic nature, but it can be frustratingly static because of its insularity (House, MD is a clear example of this). Here, a layered narrative is used where the past informs the thought process of the present and the present carries the wounds of the past a lot further than it should.

But, again, I don't think this is meant as a broad statement on depression in general because that just isn't possible. However, I think season 6 presents an opportunity for a complex look at depression in its various forms if we get to know some of the people in rehab with him.

 

[cobl04]

Great discussion! I agree with LM, even if I think the praise for that episode is extremely overwrought. I disagree that it's trying to say something profound. I think LM is bang on. It is just objectively saying 'here's this arsehole character with a lot of issues, make of it what you will'. I think it's through other characters like Diane and Princess Carolyn that they're trying harder to make a statement. I think LM is bang on - you absolutely cannot make a singular, profound statement about mental health, and I don't think the show is trying to do that at all. I think it's just showing you a lot of shit and isn't trying to shoehorn us into one particular opinion. I think the explanations you're talking about are not remotely a statement from the writers. It's Bojack being a fucking dick and shifting blame away from his own awful habits and behaviours. So I disagree.

 

[DaveC]

these are all great posts. i'm a bit too drunk to write a long opinion but yea i think that part of the appeal of the show is that it isn't trying to make a point or have a message. the characters are all really deeply flawed but there's no underlying current of "but deep down they're really good" or "and they're beyond redemption". they just are, and that's a big part of what makes them interesting and real.

 

[cobl04]

Another interesting discussion I reckon... how do we think the show will end? What will Bojack's fate be?

Does he turn everything around finally?
Will he lose everything aside from his addictions, with the final shot him sitting on his couch with a bottle as the camera pans out? Anxious and letting us make our own conclusions?
Will he commit suicide?
Will he die in an accident under the influence?

 

[iron yuppie]

It is just objectively saying 'here's this arsehole character with a lot of issues, make of it what you will'.

This is an interesting point. It suggests that by design Bojack doesn't have an arc, or at least a conventional one, but the issue there is the show has thrown a lot of heavy shit at him that seems intended to advance his character somehow - yet it never happens. That is a big part of where my "aimless" critique comes from. The most significant is

Spoiler

Sara Lynn's death

: it strains credulity that he did not have a more pronounced reaction to that. It should have either pushed him to a serious re-examination of his life, or a suicide, but it did neither - he just kept treading water as a character.


But I haven't seen the end of this season yet, so maybe he has some sort of reckoning. I'm not confident he will, though.

 

[LemonMelon]

it strains credulity that he did not have a more pronounced reaction to that. It should have either pushed him to a serious re-examination of his life, or a suicide, but it did neither - he just kept treading water as a character.

Does letting go of the steering wheel of his car and closing his eyes in the very next episode not count?

 

[cobl04]

This is an interesting point. It suggests that by design Bojack doesn't have an arc, or at least a conventional one, but the issue there is the show has thrown a lot of heavy shit at him that seems intended to advance his character somehow - yet it never happens. That is a big part of where my "aimless" critique comes from. The most significant is

Spoiler

Sara Lynn's death

: it strains credulity that he did not have a more pronounced reaction to that. It should have either pushed him to a serious re-examination of his life, or a suicide, but it did neither - he just kept treading water as a character.


But I haven't seen the end of this season yet, so maybe he has some sort of reckoning. I'm not confident he will, though.

I think that's the whole point, though. It should. But it isn't. We're watching a man continue to have these heavy experiences and he's choosing to just put up a new wall after every time it happens and pretend he's fine.

 

[iron yuppie]

Does letting go of the steering wheel of his car and closing his eyes in the very next episode not count?

I must have forgotten about that. You have a much better sense of the narrative of the show than I do.

 

[GirlsAloudFan]

Just watched all 5 seasons over the last month or so and I love it so much.

Does letting go of the steering wheel of his car and closing his eyes in the very next episode not count?

This.

Also, the events of "The Old Sugarman Place" (Bojack running away to Michigan for eight months and nearly dying in his family's old summer home) are all directly related to Sarah Lynn's death. Maybe iron yuppie didn't actually watch the show?

"The Old Sugarman Place" is the best episode of the series and one of my favorite episodes of TV ever.

 

[cobl04]

Yeah that episode is fucking fantastic. Definitely a standout.

 

[GirlsAloudFan]

I'm glad you agree. I believe that episode also marks the final (to this point) use of the immortal line "Suck a dick, dumbshits!"

 

[cobl04]

I think "That Went Well" might be my favourite though, by sheer virtue of those final few minutes, aided by the soundtrack.

 

[LemonMelon]

I don't know what my favorite episode is. I guess I'll always have a soft spot for Downer Ending because that's the episode I usually recommend to get people into the show. It holds up really well as a standalone work of surrealism or the payoff for a full season.

Lately, Stupid Piece of Shit has had a lot of replay value for me for reasons I outlined earlier, but it might not even be as good as Sugarman Place or Time's Arrow. That season was so great.

 

[cobl04]

Well, here we go.

A LOT of people expressed sadness that the show is ending before saying how excited they were. I don't get it. So much American TV has gone way too long. I'm stoked that they're ending it before getting carried away, bowing to sentiment and giving everyone a happy ending. I'm extremely excited for the new season(s?) and look forward to re-watching all the previous.

 

[iron yuppie]

It's definitely for the best that it's ending. I can't really see anywhere else significant for those characters to go. IMO it could have ended with last season's finale.

 

[bono_212]

I love that this will be the last season and I'm soooooo happy they're spreading it out a little bit.

 

[DaveC]

finally finished the new episodes last night - another great set of episodes but this batch felt a little different to me. i watched the first half about 3 weeks ago and then had a bit of a break before picking it back up, so my memories of the first 4 or 5 episodes are a little hazier than the last few so my bad if i get some of the details wrong.

Spoiler

i feel like this season there was a lot less of the main cast interacting together, which is a bit disappointing. it felt like we would really only get two or three of them at most in one place, which i guess makes sense considering bojack is in rehab and diane is in chicago. but i do miss the dynamic of having all the main characters in the same place at the same time.

also, no more of pickles and mr. peanutbutter please, i don't care in the slightest little bit about their relationship. in fact i'm pretty done with mr. peanutbutter altogether, he just irritates me now 90% of the time.

i did love the arc about the assistants' strike, and judah appearing to save the day was probably one of the highlights of the whole season for me.

i can't decide if i like the idea of bojack going off to become a drama professor, or if it feels a little too easy for him to go through one stint in rehab and ride off into the sunset to be happy. knowing this show and the way the finale ended (which was easily the weakest episode of the season, for me) though it seems as if we're in store for some great reckoning in the last episodes of the series.

it might sound like i'm being negative and i do think this season was a bit of a step back, but in this case it's a bit like the equivalent of serena williams winning five straight tournaments and then coming in second in the sixth one - still unassailably great. bring on january 30th (releasing that on the friday of super bowl bye week could not be better timing).

 

[GirlsAloudFan]

Just finished the season, too. Thought it was great, but the finale seemed a bit off and rushed.

My favorite episode was the penultimate episode, "The Face of Depression." Thought it was beautiful and it gave me that good old Bojack high of realizing you're watching some fucking seriously great TV.

Also, how did it take me so long to realize how funny Lenny Turtletaub is? Jesus, he killed me in his two appearances this season. I might have to go back and re-watch all the episodes that feature him.

 

[LemonMelon]

The last episode took a second look for me to really get into it. Once I noticed the common theme across every story and how it tied together, including the funny but foreboding intro with Margo Martindale, I was very impressed. They took a huge gamble going outside of the main cast for an entire episode, but it worked to show the far-reaching damage that Bojack has caused through his actions. It's organized chaos, a grab bag of related vignettes that leads us to season 6's incoming conflict and a celebration of the strong secondary cast they've built over the years.

The callback to Escape From LA with Hollyhock was so fucking tense. That moment gave me the stomach-sinking sensation most of their seasons deliver at some point.

 

[bono_212]

Had to go back and rewatch that episode to understand what was happening and it's amazing what narrative and piubt of view can do. In the episode, what happens doesn't seem like a huge deal because it's played for laughs, mostly from Bojack's perspective. But now you're watching it from that kid's and it's completely fucked up.

 

[iron yuppie]

Late to the party but I just finished the latest batch of episodes, which I thought was a major improvement over the last season. Far less emphasis on the gimmick (as I saw it) episodes allowed for some much-needed momentum. There's a sense of consequence going into the next season for the first time in a while IMO.

 

[DaveC]

can you elaborate on what you mean by "gimmick" episodes from last season?

bring on january 30th (releasing that on the friday of super bowl bye week could not be better timing).

lol what a stupid piece of shit.

 

[iron yuppie]

can you elaborate on what you mean by "gimmick" episodes from last season?

Gimmick was maybe too harsh a phrase, but I'm thinking specifically of the funeral monologue episode. And there was one that was told as a series of refractions from a discussion between two agents or something like that. I felt like frequently the structure of the episode was taking precedence over everything else.

 

[LemonMelon]

I agree with iYup while also not feeling like the episode quality tanked significantly because of it. The overall arc of the season was their weakest to date because everything felt so fragmented, but the episodes themselves were still sprightly and inventive.

Season 6 has flowed a lot better because the writing is more in service of a central arc than last time.

 

[iron yuppie]

I'm all for surrealism provided it feels true to the show's character. That extended drug trip / dream musical sequence last season is a good example of it working well.

I don't know if anyone has watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but that's a show that uses the occasional curveball episode really, really effectively.

 

[LemonMelon]

Good Damage is the best Diane episode yet and I felt every second of it. Absolutely heartbreaking and so relatable.

The way they experimented with the animation too...God, I'm going to miss this show.

 

[bono_212]

Fuck, gang....