New Album Discussion 1 - Songs of..... - Unreasonable guitar album

TinKnight said:

Playboy Mansion is gud, and I'm not taking any other feedback at this time. Michael Jackson and OJ are the only things that date it, and IMO, it's fine to be a little time capsule of that time period (when the Playboy Mansion itself was still relevant). Everything is fine to good, and the melody and pre-chorus buildup and the chorus are really fun. Remember kids:

Then will there be no time for sorrow
Then will there be no time for shame
And though I can't say why
I know I've got to believe

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Yeah, Playboy Mansion has probably grown on me more than any song off that album. And I don't even think the OJ/MJ lines really date it that much. There are references to old pop culture in other songs. Pride isn't date by Martin Luther King references.

mikal said:

Yeah, Playboy Mansion has probably grown on me more than any song off that album. And I don't even think the OJ/MJ lines really date it that much. There are references to old pop culture in other songs. Pride isn't date by Martin Luther King references.

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MLK is more like Gandhi or Jesus as a lyrical reference, not OJ or Michael Jackson

but for me, it's the actual music i don't like very much on Playboy and sounds the most dated

If the band had gotten to the point during recording the album with Last Night on Earth and Miami the way they are played live. damn, it would push my love for POP up even higher.

I'll say this. If they're really looking for a Fuck Off to the Pop charts album, Miami would be a great template to work from. Even though I was in my early 20's when POP came out, I didn't really get anything special from Playboy or Miami. Now 25ish years later, I take a lot more away from those songs and really the album as a whole remains fascinating to me no matter how much I listen. Wake Up Dead Man. god damn. That song just doesn't get the accolades it deserves.

Also in regards to my earlier comments about Disco being the first single. To clarify, I love that song, probably right in the middle of the pack on the album. And you've read my reasons why I think it didn't work as the first single.

Miami live slaps.

Irvine511 said:

my earlier post is more about why the album didn't work in the way that they wanted it to, and everyone's individual takes are all valid, especially as non-casual U2 fans.

i think Discotheque is a mess on the album and got better live, but for me, it's more "boots" than "vertigo" in terms of a lead-off rock single with a big catchy edge riff, which is why it wasn't successful. video was dumb and made them look clueless. they'd already torn down the Joshua Tree, why do the village people thing to further say, "hey, we're not those annoying guys in cowboy hats anymore." they already did that, this is them taking the joke too far and reveals the fact that this era wasn't thought-through and coherent in the way that the Zoo era was. they didn't know what they were trying to say about themselves.

i think DYFL would have been better as it's smoother, sleeker, and has the futuristic beats, and would have resulted in a much cooler video.

mofo is great and necessary

SATS is almost great, and could have been the big unifying single -- i remember my mom singing along to it on the radio that summer. but there's still something that doesn't quite cohere into the post-bridge sonic euphoric uplift that they achieved on "one" or "wowy." still a great song.

LNOE got better with the single version; inexplicably bad video

Gone is the best song on the album, absolutely rules live, defiant, solid A+ song

Miami is great, and i didn't like this one in 1997

Playboy is up there with SUC as one of their worst songs, has dated very poorly, and i can't believe people think that his lyrics are more cliche-ridden, too-universal now than on this one (other lyrics are great on this album)

Velvet Dress is more an idea than a song, it's shimmering and sometimes lovely but it doesn't achieve the drama i think they want

Please i love the raw ache on the album, but still feels not finished, and i find the single version overwrought, but this is a Top 5 Live U2 song; please, please, please play this one again. i know no one comes to Vegas for politics, but damn this would have been a gut punch in the context of Gaza

WUDM is a weird, great closer

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I agree with all of this, except for Discotheque, which I think really works. And you left out "If God ... " which works for me, since the less that is said about that the better.,

A lot of the songs on POP seem to want to be two or three things at the same time. Which always result in not fully achieving either. Miami is easily in the top 5 best tracks of the album because it's another one that doesn't sound confused. Though the reactions on here if Bono would have uttered "Miami, my mammy" on any of their albums post POP would be hilarious.

This isn’t a particularly substantive contribution to the chat, but I do remember when I first got this album that for about a month I only liked the odd numbered tracks and then completely flipped and only like the even numbered tracks. Not being obsessive compulsive about, it just turned out that way.

Looking back now I think it is their last great album. I really think it is a true commitment to an idea, it’s executed well, sounds great still and as headache said, dark Bono is the best Bono. I said in about 2019 that SOE was their best album since then. It isn’t. But it has a couple of their best songs since then.

I love the relaxed groove of Playboy Mansion, I don't think that's aged at all. There's some great rhythm work across the album, they really shine and the loops/beats work so well. I think that's why I'd love to hear the early versions of songs and those without Larry onboard (physical).

Bullet and Running on Zoo TV will never be beaten for me, but the funkier Bullet after Miami on Popmart was pretty incredible.

I think TLTTGYA is the closest Bono is going to get to being "dark". Like jesus:

"Sometimes, sometimes, sometimes
Sometimes I'm full of anger and grieving
So far away from believing
That any sun will reappear"

(I don't believe the official lyrics, he says sun, fight me)

Well, speaking of The Playboy Mansion and whether it is dated or not, here are today's news:

Did anyone think that the lack of a smash hit from Pop was indicative of the band losing their ability to write a smash and grab / easily accessible radio hit?

Or were they hearing a band bunkering down, actively trying to avoid that sort of song (in hindsight, given the chart success of the singles from ATYCLB and HTDAAB* this seems more accurate)?

*In the UK at least where songs like Beautiful Day, Elevation, Vertigo, Stuck in a Moment charted highly and endured

djerdap said:

Well, speaking of The Playboy Mansion and whether it is dated or not, here are today's news:

OJ Simpson, former football star acquitted of murder, dies at 76

Simpson was accused of murdering his ex-wife Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend Ron Goldman, but was ultimately acquitted.

abcnews.go.com

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oh no, did i do this.

Salome said:

I agree with all of this, except for Discotheque, which I think really works. And you left out "If God ... " which works for me, since the less that is said about that the better.,

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at the time I thought this should have been the single right after SATS since it has that sad U2 ache thing that only they can do and they got exactly right with "one." it isn't "one," but I think it's emotional and sometimes captivating with genuinely bonkers lyrics and the single version is the best version. i feel like they held it so it could be that silly Christmas #1 single in the UK, which was a disservice to the album as a whole, since it would have gotten airplay and felt like more familiar U2 to the casuals. by November 1997, the album was over.

i still think it's a good song. the few live versions i've heard were terrible though ...

ChurchBay said:

Did anyone think that the lack of a smash hit from Pop was indicative of the band losing their ability to write a smash and grab / easily accessible radio hit?

Or were they hearing a band bunkering down, actively trying to avoid that sort of song (in hindsight, given the chart success of the singles from ATYCLB and HTDAAB* this seems more accurate)?

*In the UK at least where songs like Beautiful Day, Elevation, Vertigo, Stuck in a Moment charted highly and endured

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I think it could just be as simple as that they just didn't produce a hook that took the radio by storm like "One" and "WOWY". I also don't know if they were really trying to force a hit either on this album.

Great to see all the POP talk. Its in my top 3 and my favorite era, as I was 19 when it came out & was my first waiting for U2 as a diehard.

Few things to note from the general public during that time;

-U2 were gone from the public eye for quite a while. They were thought of during Batman Forever (95) & Mission Impossible (96). But the ZooTV/Alt rock band (not Passengers) was gone maybe too long. A 4 year break between albums was not popular during that time.

-On top of that, U2 was considered old. Even though they were around 35-37 years old that was considered ancient during the rock/pop scene.

-During this break rock music changed considerably. The mainstream went from Pearl Jam, Nirvana, & grunge to 3rd Eye Blind, Smash Mouth, Foo Fighters, & Creed. While U2 was more in vein at this time w/ Radiohead, Oasis, & The Verve, they were going for a grand slam w/ POP. Even though U2 was talking about Chemical Brothers & Prodigy.

-When Discotheque hit, the US market thought it was a little strange of a video. Again this is the first time seeing U2 in quite a while. It sold well as a single & was played on the radio.

- Album was released in March and the tour was less than 60 days away. The album couldn't even settle with the fans let alone the mainstream market. And tickets went on sale before the album released if I'm not mistaken. On top of that, opening night/tour was so hyped up. The encore of ZooTV!! And they flopped hard in Las Vegas.

Add all that up together and Pop just didnt have a chance to take off.

The intentions were there. All the singles that came off of it. By June the tour had started to hit its stride. And the 2nd Leg beyond were epic shows. Songs sounded great live & they re worked quite a few of them. A few things I think they shoul've done:

-Don't hype up Popmart to the point its better than ZooTV.

-They should've released 2 singles in late 1996 just to create some buzz. I felt a double single of Gone & Discotheqe wouldv'e been perfect. Showcase the difference textures of POP.


But overeall, POP is a great album. It is raw and needed just a little more cooking (see single versions) but U2 went for it & they almost had something. In someways, way ahead of their time. 1997 wasn't ready for it. And as many have said, the band sounds so good on it. All of them. The lyrics are some of Bonos best. Larry & Adam shine heavily on it. And The Edge is pure bliss. What lacks in solos is made up with effects/sounds/riffs that make up POP.

Funny thing is, everyone talks about Vegas being such a flop, but I listened to the bootlegs back in the day and didn't think they were that bad. They were just a little off on a couple of songs, but the show was probably so loud that most people in the audience didn't notice, aside from Staring At The Sun.

^^^

Few things about Vegas

-The crowd didn't know wth was going on during Mofo. Like they never heard the song (probably didn't). I was going wild!! I yelled after the 1st verse 'FU**CKIN MOFO'!! And this husband & wife turned around at me like, wtf, haha

-Bono's voice was rough. The desert air. I remember it being pretty dusty.

-Staring At The Sun, the Karaoke segment, & Discotheque were off.

- I remember the crowd enjoyed Gone, LNOE, & went crazy during Please/SBS ending. The show finally turned into a U2 show during Streets & the 2nd Encore.

zoopop said:

^^^

Few things about Vegas

-The crowd didn't know wth was going on during Mofo. Like they never heard the song (probably didn't). I was going wild!! I yelled after the 1st verse 'FU**CKIN MOFO'!! And this husband & wife turned around at me like, wtf, haha

-Bono's voice was rough. The desert air. I remember it being pretty dusty.

-Staring At The Sun, the Karaoke segment, & Discotheque were off.

- I remember the crowd enjoyed Gone, LNOE, & went crazy during Please/SBS ending. The show finally turned into a U2 show during Streets & the 2nd Encore.

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Nice! I've never actually talked to someone who went to that show, haha. I was actually thinking about searching the world wide web for old reviews after the show to see if they were actually as scathing as I thought.

ascender_RS said:

I love the relaxed groove of Playboy Mansion, I don't think that's aged at all. There's some great rhythm work across the album, they really shine and the loops/beats work so well. I think that's why I'd love to hear the early versions of songs and those without Larry onboard (physical).

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Ugh, same. Pop demos/outtakes/alternate versions are basically all I want from the band at this point (That’s a lie, I also want MORE [non-Salome Outtakes] Achtung Baby stuff, all of the Zooropa and Passengers sessions and whatever they were working on at the end of the decade).

The album - and Popmart - changed my life, and it’s tough to love something that the band is so at odds with. I couldn’t help but hope that when I went to the Sphere on 1/27 that they’d have retooled the show a bit to include some Pop. Alas.

i think, for U2, it's less that they don't like the songs and music and more that that period opened them up to a lot of embarrassment -- the poorly rated TV special, the half-empty stadiums, the Vegas show, the fact that they probably realized that they really do need to put in the work to pull it off as they were when they pulled off Zoo TV they can't just wing it -- and they don't like to revisit that kind of trauma.

and they are traumatized by that era. everything since has been a reaction to it.

kind of interesting that their most overproduced album is their most undercooked.

TinKnight said:

Playboy Mansion is gud, and I'm not taking any other feedback at this time. Michael Jackson and OJ are the only things that date it, and IMO, it's fine to be a little time capsule of that time period (when the Playboy Mansion itself was still relevant). Everything is fine to good, and the melody and pre-chorus buildup and the chorus are really fun. Remember kids:

Then will there be no time for sorrow
Then will there be no time for shame
And though I can't say why
I know I've got to believe

Click to expand...

I've always loved it too. I understand why some don't like the lyrics (though it's fitting that an album called Pop has one song devoted to pop culture), but the music is so damned good.

I watched the VMA Please performance again, incredible. I think they probably intended it to start off slowly then build. Bono's voice was so pure and beautiful in this performance too.

When I Googled it I read that Bono said in U2 by U2 that Please became "impossible to perform" after 9/11. Obviously because of the prophetic lyrics. That's one reason I love them, because they have that kind of sensitivity about their songs. I say have because I think they still do.

Great song, one of my favorite U2 songs. The Google also said that Bono recorded his vocals for the album version in one take.

A timeless song, always relevant. From The Troubles to Israel Gaza and Russia Ukraine and on and on sadly.

I actually went to the pre AND post 9/11 Elevation shows and remember him singing Please and talking about the lyrics after the fact (although he said at the show that he didn't think of it until Ali brought it to his attention but I'm just guessing that's some stage storytelling)

ChurchBay said:

Did anyone think that the lack of a smash hit from Pop was indicative of the band losing their ability to write a smash and grab / easily accessible radio hit?

Or were they hearing a band bunkering down, actively trying to avoid that sort of song (in hindsight, given the chart success of the singles from ATYCLB and HTDAAB* this seems more accurate)?

*In the UK at least where songs like Beautiful Day, Elevation, Vertigo, Stuck in a Moment charted highly and endured

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I absolutely believe that they thought discotheque and staring at the sun were hits.

And in another world they might have been - but, well, they weren't

Headache in a Suitcase said:

I absolutely believe that they thought discotheque and staring at the sun were hits.

And in another world they might have been - but, well, they weren't

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My hunch is that they incorrectly figured that their popularity was still at its height when in reality, it faded after 4 years away. If they had released the same exact album in 1995, I bet those 2 songs would have fared a ton better.

I'm a young lad; how was rock music faring at the time in general?

TinKnight said:

I'm a young lad; how was rock music faring at the time in general?

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Well. Really well. But also not where it was in the early 90’s

mikal said:

Well. Really well. But also not where it was in the early 90’s

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here is the year end billboard top 100 from 1997

1997 was the year of the pop / post grunge rock band, along with the momentary influx of Ska into the mainstream.

No Doubt, The Wallflowers, Green Day, Smash Mouth, Third Eye Blind, Matchbox 20, The Verve, The Verve Pipe, Collective Soul, Bush, Everclear, Marcy Playground, Sugar Ray, Mighty Mighty Bosstones, Creed, Counting Crows, Live, Sublime

And a little band called the Foo Fighters released Everlong, and Radiohead put out OK Computer.

mikal said:

My hunch is that they incorrectly figured that their popularity was still at its height when in reality, it faded after 4 years away. If they had released the same exact album in 1995, I bet those 2 songs would have fared a ton better.

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Hold Me Thrill Me Kiss Me Kill Me was released in 1995 and did very well (and inspired a screen name of some douche).

so yea - i think you're right on. they let it go for too long and entered into an era where rock was post-grunge and pop was plastic boy bands and hip hop drove the big cars, or something. pop was just not the right album for that time - whereas another 4 years down the road All That You Can't Leave Behind was the perfect album for late 2000 into 2001.

Only 4 rock bands had a number 1 album in 1997, U2, Metallica, Fleetwood Mac, and Aerosmith. And No Doubt is kind of in the rock realm. Definitely and R&B, Boy band, and Country renaissance happening around that time,
Although I do remember 3rd Eye Blind being played like 3 times an hour for months, along with No Doubt.