Dalton and NSW's Beijing Olympics Thread - Part III

[ntalwar]

Even if they are underage, I don't see how that gives them an edge in competition. I can't think of any sport where 12 year olds outperform older competitors.

 

[AnnRKeyintheUSA]

Even if they are underage, I don't see how that gives them an edge in competition. I can't think of any sport where 12 year olds outperform older competitors.

The point is, if they are underage, they should not be qualified for the Olympics, so everything they do is against the rules and should be thrown out, just as much as a guy loses his metal for doping. This is the hypocrisy. Obviously, the Chinese DID feel their 12 year olds were better competitors than their older girls, or they'd have used them instead of lying. Gymnastics is one of the few sports where the younger athletes are better performers- reasons being they are underdeveloped so their bodies are smaller, more agile, less 'beat up' and injured, and better suited to the little tricks they have to do.

 

[yolland]

So, the women's 100m hurdles was quite a shocker--all three medals wound up going to underdogs...the US' Dawn Harper for the gold, Australia's Sally McLellan for the silver, and Canada's Priscilla Lopes-Schliep for the bronze (congrats to Canada on their first track medal in Beijing!). The US' Lolo Jones had a solid lead until she clipped the next-to-last hurdle, sadly, and the two Jamaican medal favorites wound up finishing fifth and sixth. I haven't seen it yet, but I gather they had to use photofinish to determine second through sixth places because they all finished within a hundredth of a second of each other (there were just a few thousandths of a second separating McLellan from Lopes-Schliep). Sounds like quite the drama!

Russia currently has the lead in track & field medal rankings (4 golds, 8 overall), with the US second (3 golds, 11 overall) and Kenya, Jamaica and Ethiopia right behind (2 golds each; 8, 5 and 3 overall, respectively). Plenty of chances still for that top 5 to get shuffled around...

Big victories for Bahrain's Rashid Ramzi in the men's 1500m (Bahrain's first Olympic medal ever) and the UK's Christine Ohuruogu in the women's 400m, looking forward to seeing those too.

 

[DaveC]

I am at a numb loss after watching the gymnastics. Not only is the judging obviously rigged, the Chinese girls being underage is a disgrace not only to their host country but to the IOC who accepted the 'new' birth certificates! Look at those little kids, they make 5'2" Nastia look like a giant. It's WRONG not just to the Americans but to all the other athletes from other countries the right age who didn't get a medal taken by a girl who never should have been there. The Russian women were SHUT OUT while 12 year old liars backed by grownups in high positions cleaned up. What does this teach kids about the Olympic spirit, cheating, fair play and rules? It's a bad message!

I feel so sorry for Nastia, she was better four years ago, but couldn't go because she was too young. It must be so bitter for her to sit there and get beaten by, not only bogus judging, but by little girls who shouldn't have made the team due to their age. If she could have lied about her age in 04 she may have a pile of medals too. She did the right thing and it didn't pay off. Oh, and what about that North Korean who won gold after landing both vaults out of bounds? Sorry there is just NO excuse or justification for the farce that has occured in Olympics.

You seem quite certain here. I suspect you've got some evidence other than looking at photos and guessing? I looked like I was 12 until I was 18 and started to grow a little stubble.

 

[AnnRKeyintheUSA]

You seem quite certain here. I suspect you've got some evidence other than looking at photos and guessing? I looked like I was 12 until I was 18 and started to grow a little stubble.

It's hardly only me, it's all over TV and the news, a very well publicized scandal.

See, their birth certificates have been changed. He Kexin was born in 1994 but now suddenly she's born in 1992

Olympics Age-Old problem

BEIJING – For a long time, elements of the Chinese government itself thought women’s gymnast He Kexin was born Jan. 1, 1994, which would make her 14 and too young to compete in these Summer Olympics.

Whether it was repeated mentions in the government-controlled media – including a new one uncovered Friday by the Associated Press – or on official gymnastic meet registration forms and websites, He was “this little girl” and a “new star.”

As recently as December 2007, in provincial gymnastics meets and news reports that covered it, she was a 13-year-old prodigy, too young for the 16-year-old Olympic age limit for gymnastics.

Then, suddenly, she wasn’t.

entire story:
http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/be...slug=dw-gymnastsage081408&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

much, much more

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...mnasts_080815/20080815?hub=TopStories&s_name=

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/olympics/2008114970_olyflap15.html?syndication=rss

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,403584,00.html

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/olympics/story/647602.html

 

[speedracer]

Even if they are underage, I don't see how that gives them an edge in competition. I can't think of any sport where 12 year olds outperform older competitors.

The age limit isn't there primarily to restrict the pool of competitors, but to prevent gymnastics coaches and parents from engaging in child abuse.

I think the age limit is pretty dumb precisely because it's so unenforceable, but if any of the Chinese gymnasts are indeed under 16, you can't possibly argue that the other teams aren't being royally jobbed.

Also, shenanigans like this have happened in the past:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_controversies_in_gymnastics

 

[ntalwar]

The age limit isn't there primarily to restrict the pool of competitors, but to prevent gymnastics coaches and parents from engaging in child abuse.

I don't see a difference between American 12 year olds competing in junior events and Chinese 12 year olds competing in the Olympics. The only difference is the level of competition. At both levels, the kids work hard. The Chinese gymnastics schools (where young kids live away from their parents) seem more abusive to me.

Gymnastics is one of the few sports where the younger athletes are better performers- reasons being they are underdeveloped so their bodies are smaller, more agile, less 'beat up' and injured, and better suited to the little tricks they have to do.

I would have to watch videos of junior competitions in order to be convinced of that.

 

[Irvine511]

judgin' sports

 

[coolian2]

Bronze in the men's 1500, although I was quietly hoping for better.

This is turning out to be quite an alright Olympics.

 

[coolian2]

I am at a numb loss after watching the gymnastics. Not only is the judging obviously rigged, the Chinese girls being underage is a disgrace not only to their host country but to the IOC who accepted the 'new' birth certificates! Look at those little kids, they make 5'2" Nastia look like a giant. It's WRONG not just to the Americans but to all the other athletes from other countries the right age who didn't get a medal taken by a girl who never should have been there. The Russian women were SHUT OUT while 12 year old liars backed by grownups in high positions cleaned up. What does this teach kids about the Olympic spirit, cheating, fair play and rules? It's a bad message!

I feel so sorry for Nastia, she was better four years ago, but couldn't go because she was too young. It must be so bitter for her to sit there and get beaten by, not only bogus judging, but by little girls who shouldn't have made the team due to their age. If she could have lied about her age in 04 she may have a pile of medals too. She did the right thing and it didn't pay off. Oh, and what about that North Korean who won gold after landing both vaults out of bounds? Sorry there is just NO excuse or justification for the farce that has occured in Olympics.

Are you under 16?

Because, well...I'll try and put this delicately...

 

[Dalton]

Even if they are underage, I don't see how that gives them an edge in competition. I can't think of any sport where 12 year olds outperform older competitors.

Actually there was a report on this the other day (NPR?) in which older gymnasts and representatives of the governing body explained that younger gymnasts often have an advantage because they are more flexible through the hips.

GAF concurred.

 

[Dalton]

You seem quite certain here. I suspect you've got some evidence other than looking at photos and guessing? I looked like I was 12 until I was 18 and started to grow a little stubble.

And you still look like a bitch. Allegedly.

 

[anitram]

Salon calls out the NBC gymnastics commentators for ridiculous US-bias. Finally! I've been saying for days that watching gymnastics on NBC has been absolutely unbearable.

To listen to the overheated, reflexively pro-American NBC team, though, you'd think we were watching that scene in "Casablanca" when a croupier hands Captain Renault a wad of cash with the words "Your winnings, sir." No sooner had Liukin received her score -- the same 16.725 that He was awarded -- than NBC's expert commentator Tim Daggett said, "I think they dropped the ball on this one." Working himself up, he later called the decision "crazy." NBC's other expert commentator, Elfi Schlegel, jumped on the "we wuz robbed" bandwagon, saying, "Absolutely, Tim. That routine was spectacular. One slight flaw but minuscule compared to what He did."

...

After the final competitor performed, He immediately knew she had won. There was no controversy -- the tiebreaker had already been applied. So, as winners usually do at this time, she got up, beaming, and waved to the crowd. But NBC reacted as if there were still some possible other outcome that might reverse this cosmic travesty. "She already believes she's going to win," Trautwig said. "Yeah, they think it's over," someone else chimed in. Uh, perhaps they thought that because it was over.

But for NBC, it wasn't over. First, it brought in a reporter to deliver a gratuitous report on why the U.S. was not protesting the result. (Answer: It had no grounds!) Then it got so deep into its outrage-and-confusion theme that it missed the beginning of the medal ceremony. As the medal music began to play, instead of showing the three athletes on the podium, NBC showed Liukin's coach and father, Valeri Liukin, and team coach Martha Karolyi staring at a paper explaining the tiebreaker. NBC barely caught the introduction of Chinese bronze medalist Yang Yilin. It bordered on the disrespectful. And as the camera focused on Liukin during the medal ceremony, Trautwig launched into yet another profound psychological soliloquy, intoning that "at times like this you just have to remind yourself, I've won four Olympics gold medals here and I won the most cherished gold medal there is in this sport." Then he added portentously, "But boy, would things be different here if that hadn't happened."

The nadir of this overwrought episode came when Trautwig said, "Does He Kexin really think she won the gold?" At least Daggett had the good sense to say that she did. But the impression left was that Fort Knox had just been burgled by Goldfinger and James Bond was too busy with Pussy Galore to do anything about it.

...

Daggett claimed that the fact that Liukin was American didn't affect his views, and maybe that's true. But the U.S.-centric tilt of the whole telecast was unmistakable -- and the problem goes beyond gymnastics. If NBC could take the red, white and blue filter off everything, we could see the Olympics a lot more clearly.

 

[speedracer]

I don't see a difference between American 12 year olds competing in junior events and Chinese 12 year olds competing in the Olympics. The only difference is the level of competition. At both levels, the kids work hard. The Chinese gymnastics schools (where young kids live away from their parents) seem more abusive to me.

I think it's pretty clear that the Olympics are sexier and more lucrative than a junior meet. Therefore, the temptation to overtrain a young gymnast for the Olympics is way stronger than the temptation to overtrain a young gymnast for a junior meet.

I would have to watch videos of junior competitions in order to be convinced of that.

There are plenty of videos of earlier Olympic/worldclass gymnastics competitions with looser age requirements (14+ or no age requirement) floating around on teh intarwebs. Just watch a few and I think you'll agree that height, hips and boobies are all major disadvantages in women's gymnastics.

 

[indra]

Salon calls out the NBC gymnastics commentators for ridiculous US-bias. Finally! I've been saying for days that watching gymnastics on NBC has been absolutely unbearable.

I find it's not all that bad if I turn the sound all the way down and just watch the performances and then look at the scores on the screen. It's a bit of a pain during the women's floor exercise because I don't hear the music, but sometimes missing the music is no great loss anyway.

Of course I also miss gems such as Trautwig's: "But boy, would things be different here if that hadn't happened."

 

[Sicy]

There is no way the Chinese gymnast that won the gold medal was 16.. she seriously looked wayyy younger than that. And I was disappointed with the judging ... it has to be rigged in some form or another. Nastia's performance was overall and what seemed to me, obviously better than he girl who one the gold.

 

[anitram]

There is no way the Chinese gymnast that won the gold medal was 16.. she seriously looked wayyy younger than that. And I was disappointed with the judging ... it has to be rigged in some form or another. Nastia's performance was overall and what seemed to me, obviously better than he girl who one the gold.

I watched it too and I'm a huge gymnastics fan and have watched for years. There was nothing obviously better technically about Nastia's performance. I thought they were about even to be honest. Furthermore, technically Yang Yilin, the bronze medallist was better than both of them and if there is any room for complaint, it is here.

 

[intedomine]

I wouldn't say Johnson looks older than 14.

Gymnasts tend to look younger anyway, cause it's often better to be a wee bit shorter.

Thankfully in the men's comp age doesnt seem to be a controversial issue. What a horizontal bar final it was last night. Felt sorry for the Dutch fella, he was really goin hard' for it, only to slip off. Cassina still a gun, 31 years old.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

I watched both routines and I tend to agree with anitram. Neither one was clearly "better" and more worthy of winning than the other. Considering that the scoring rules are laid out to arbitrate without bias in the case of a tie, I don't think that Nastia wuz robbed. But then again, I'm one of those who doesn't give a crap about athletes being from the USA or Namibia or Lithuania. I just wanna see some good Olympics.

 

[Dalton]

To sum up and close this argument: its gymnastics.

 

[coolian2]

I watched both routines and I tend to agree with anitram. Neither one was clearly "better" and more worthy of winning than the other. Considering that the scoring rules are laid out to arbitrate without bias in the case of a tie, I don't think that Nastia wuz robbed. But then again, I'm one of those who doesn't give a crap about athletes being from the USA or Namibia or Lithuania. I just wanna see some good Olympics.

What the hell are you doing, using logic? Get outta here.

 

[Pearl]

I also thought both routines were good, but also agree that the gymnasts are being robbed by underaged girls, and that is discredit the IOC. Its cases like this that make some people dislike the Olympics and say its not on a level, because in a sense, they are right.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

To sum up and close this argument: its gymnastics.

ding ding ding! we have a winner.

 

[Sicy]

I watched it too and I'm a huge gymnastics fan and have watched for years. There was nothing obviously better technically about Nastia's performance. I thought they were about even to be honest. Furthermore, technically Yang Yilin, the bronze medallist was better than both of them and if there is any room for complaint, it is here.

Dont the commentators know about gymnastics as well? I'm pretty sure they were saying the same thing, over and over, that Nastia's performance was better. Didn't the Chinese girl make more errors than Nastia? Causing for what should have been more deductions? No, I dont know shit about gymnastics but I enjoy watching it and it just seemed like Nastia made less mistakes in the routine.

 

[Dalton]

Three reasons Nastia should have won (by Dalton):

1. She's blond
2. She has boobs
3. Her name is Nastia

 

[anitram]

Dont the commentators know about gymnastics as well? I'm pretty sure they were saying the same thing, over and over, that Nastia's performance was better. Didn't the Chinese girl make more errors than Nastia? Causing for what should have been more deductions?

For good commentary about the commentators, have a look at that Salon article I posted on the previous page. They were embarrassing on that night and everything they said was ridiculously overblown. They've been terrible and biased all along and finally the media is starting to call them out.

 

[coolian2]

Three reasons Nastia should have won (by Dalton age 16):

1. She's blond
2. She has boobs
3. Her name is Nastia

I challenge point #2.

 

[No spoken words]

Salon calls out the NBC gymnastics commentators for ridiculous US-bias. Finally! I've been saying for days that watching gymnastics on NBC has been absolutely unbearable.

I think many of us having been saying this.

 

[coolian2]

I think many of us having been saying this.

Many of us don't how our own online columns.

 

[coolian2]

Holy fuck, I forgot BMX was in the Olympics.